SZA on The Grammys, Assessing Her Breast Cancer Risk, & Not Being a Nice Girl

Mary Alice:
Hey you all. I'm Mary Alice Haney.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
And I'm Dr. Thais Aliabadi. Welcome to SHE MD, the podcast for women who want to own their own health. In this episode, we interview one of my incredibly kind and talented patients, musical artist, SZA.

Mary Alice:
We actually recorded this episode a month before the Grammys and so you'll hear our excitement leading up to the award season. And you probably heard, but she did end up winning three Grammys. My kids and I were jumping on the couch. She won Best R&B song, Best Progressive R&B album, and Best Pop Duo. We were so lucky to have her on the podcast to talk about her career, her lifetime risk of breast cancer, and how she may just text Dr. A as much as I do. Thanks for joining us in this amazing conversation with SZA.
This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is not intended as a substitute for a physician's medical advice. You should regularly consult your medical provider in matters relating to your own health. Our guest today is one of the biggest superstars in the world. She is an amazing musician. She's an artist, she's a fashionista. She's also one of Dr. A's patients, and we are so lucky to have you today. Hello.

SZA:
Thank you.

Mary Alice:
All right, SZA.

SZA:
Yeah.

Mary Alice:
Give me your entire name and tell me where SZA came from.

SZA:
Solana Imani Rowe is my entire name. SZA is an acronym derived from the Divine Alphabet. If you're familiar with Wu-Tang or anything like that, or Five Percenter, it's like an older ideology where each letter stands for different ideologies. So S stands for self sovereignty, like sovereignty of oneself and savior of oneself, and then Z stands for zigzag, which is enlightenment of oneself, and then A stands for Allah or God, or whatever you consider the most high. And so yeah, all those things.

Mary Alice:
Oh, and then when... How old were you when you took on that name?

SZA:
Well, that was just part of my... My friends call me Sous or Sosa because my name is Solana and they just make it Sous or Sosa or whatever, for sure. But I feel like I couldn't make my name be Sosa for an artist's name because I think Chief Keith, this artist had just came out at the same time and he's like... He's a rapper from Chicago and people were just getting confused and I honestly thought it was really cool because it was such a juxtaposition, but yeah. So then SZA was born and then yeah.

Mary Alice:
Well, it's the prettiest name and I have to tell you, I'm not cool at all with my kids. They just think that I'm a weird... They just don't know. Even when I had... I was a huge fashion designer and had celebrities wearing my clothes, they were like... They could care less. They found out you were coming on this podcast, and they were like, "Mom. SZA." And they started playing your music, which I had heard before, but I was like, "There's an artist whose voice is so beautiful in this world of men whose message is also really beautiful."

SZA:
Thank you.

Mary Alice:
And I have to tell you, as a mother and as a woman, I just was very inspired by you. So thank you so much for coming in. Can you tell me a little bit about how you all met and we're going to kind of dig into everything, preventative breast cancer, prevention and why we're all here.

SZA:
Basically, I came to Dr. A because I had a lot of allergies and I had so many allergies I didn't know what was going on with me. I'm like, "It's coming out." It's like urticaria and dermatitis on my face, around my mouth, on my chin.

Mary Alice:
Was it stress related?

SZA:
No. I still... I'm with a rheumatologist right now. It came out that I had a positive ANA, which is a sign of inflammation-

Mary Alice:
I have that, too.

SZA:
... and sometimes lupus. Yeah, yeah. And so you could take lupus medication.

Mary Alice:
It doesn't mean you have lupus, but...

SZA:
It can make it better. Right.

Mary Alice:
You could.

SZA:
But you could. Right. Well, depending on your other factors, the other things that come out in your blood work, like your protein and your urine, and all that kind of stuff, which I sometimes have and sometimes don't. And then when I went to her, she was telling all these things about my testosterone levels and PCOS and all these things that I was plagued with, but didn't really know what was actually happening to me. I don't know. She had such a very, not nonchalant, but she was so chill about things that I was terrified about and I'd be like, "Dr. A, please. I just..."

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Stop it.

SZA:
"I'm dying." If I had a ingrown hair, I would just be crying on the phone. I'm just like, "Please, I just, I can't take it." I've lived my life the wrong way and I just think about everything. I'm a very, I don't know. She's my general practitioner.

Mary Alice:
Yes.

SZA:
If I have any ailment in my body, I call her. If I have... Seriously, if I have bronchitis, I call her. If I have... Remember when I had those crazy lumps-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yes.

SZA:
On my lymph nodes and we were like, "Does she have mono? What's happening?"

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Sometimes I'm like, "You know I'm a gynecologist, right?"

SZA:
I don't care. I don't care. I don't know. I just trust her. Her energy is like... Because when I was scared and it was also, I guess, quite some time ago, so it was like... I don't know. You get into the scene of, not the industry and people recommend you to doctors and people aren't so friendly or you just are nervous and you don't know what's going on. And also, I was having all these just weird... People will tell you anything or they'll be like, "I don't know, you probably have this. I don't know, you probably have that." But she really took the time to be like, "No, you should really relax. It's very likely that there's nothing wrong with you and it's very likely that everything [inaudible 00:05:43]. You're fine. And these things are so normal."
And I'm like, "Are you sure?" And she's like, "I'm sure. I see a lot of people." And I was like, "All right." I was like, "Do you see anyone Black? Do you know what it looks like?" And she was like, "Yeah, I do." And she was always right. I just trust her. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't have mono that one time, but I did have some crazy lymph node thing, but she sent my results off to a specialist, but she took my test results at her office and then she sent them off. But I just trust her, for some reason.

Mary Alice:
Well, I think, not I think, I know, we created this podcast and we're creating Utera Health so that we can give all the information and education that she has and give it to women and women of color especially, have been sort of left behind in the conversation with medicine. I think that's actually a really good point that you were just saying. And we talk about this a lot. There's places in America that are called medical wastelands where they have no access to care and women have no one like Dr. A that they can go to.

SZA:
I'm sending everyone I know, by the way, to her, literally. And she's so willing to help any one of my friends, whether it's my boyfriend's mom and I'm like, "My boyfriend's mom has had a cough for six months and we have to do something, Dr. A. Who do we call?" And she'll call somebody and figure it out. Or if it's my boyfriend himself and I'm like, "His cholesterol's through the roof. He has anxiety. Something's happening with his chest." She'll be like, "Okay. We'll call the cardiologist and we'll go to this specialist." I'm like, "Dr. A, what about my other friend? She's having a baby, Lord and something's wrong with her kidneys."

Mary Alice:
That's the right person to go to.

SZA:
I'm telling you every... But she has a answer. She has a solution and I feel like it's really angelic and strange that you have the capacity, and that brings me back to you're a witch because why do you have so much energy and attention and capacity to hold space for so many people and still be genuinely delightful and still be into cool shit like foster care and... I don't know. You have time for extra shit, which is really interesting on top of being excellent at your craft because when you're really good at your craft, you're not really supposed to have time for extra shit. And somehow you do. And I just think that's really...

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I love you. You see?

SZA:
I love you.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But it's because of people like you that I get up every morning and I go to work. I'm serious.

Mary Alice:
She says that. That's true.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You can't put a price tag on what you just said. Do you know what I'm saying? My heart is full every single day because of women like her and I'm serious and I love her. I always tell her, "You're one of my daughters" because you know?

SZA:
I call her enough for her to be my mother.

Mary Alice:
I do too. We have an issue. [inaudible 00:08:24].

SZA:
No, it's awful. It's like... It's just so awful. She'd be like, "Please. Not after 10:00, not after 11:00." And then I'll freak out. I look at my phone, I'm like, "Damn, I sent that text at 2:00 AM."

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Our time schedules are flipped.

SZA:
And I'm also on tour. I'm in another country, time zones. I'll be like, "Dr A, how am I going to get this medicine in another...?" And it has nothing to do with anything gynecological. I'm just like, "I'm in Paris and I need something for my ear, nose and throat and I need help and I need..." [inaudible 00:08:54]. I don't know. I just...

Mary Alice:
Well, when I went into Dr. A's office, we did a lifetime risk, we did a genetic test. She just really gave me information and informed me in a way that I hadn't really been informed about my own health. We are going to have a lifetime risk calculator on Utera Health. Can you talk a bit about that?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
So every patient that walks into my office gets their lifetime risk calculated. A lot of people are-

Mary Alice:
Of breast cancer.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Of breast cancer. A lot of people think because they don't have it in their family, they're not at risk for breast cancer. The general population, not knowing about any woman, average risk of breast cancer is 12.5%. And when I say that to patients, patients are like, "Well, that's not a big deal." But you know what I say? "What if I told you that your plane that you're about to board, had a 12.5% chance of crashing, would you board that plane?"

SZA:
No.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Exactly.

SZA:
Maybe depending...

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Maybe?

SZA:
I don't know. I'm not going to lie. Maybe. I don't know.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No. Maybe if I'm going to Paris.

SZA:
I'm saying, if I'm going somewhere really awesome and it's like... When will I ever get to do this again? I might. I just pray.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No, I would never... I would, personally. I think 12.5%, if you look at it that way, is a big number.

SZA:
[inaudible 00:10:09].

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
So average risk of population is 12.5, which is significant, right? Then you add height to it, it can go up. As your breast gets denser, it goes up.

SZA:
What? Did you find a lump first before you sent me?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No, I calculated your lifetime risk of breast cancer.

SZA:
That was after.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
After. Right.

SZA:
I think you may have found it and then sent me.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You had a fibroadenoma, which is a benign breast mass that a lot of young girls have, but because of her family history and... Do you want to share your family history or no?

SZA:
Oh, my mom dealt with breast cancer. My aunt also had a mastectomy and [inaudible 00:10:48].

Mary Alice:
Did they survive?

SZA:
Yeah.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah.

SZA:
Everyone's great. My mom's been clear for seven years.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You see her, she's healthy, she eats healthy, she lives a great life, but yet, family history matters, right? So someone like her and it... A lot of people, almost every single person has someone, some family member with some sort of cancer. It could be prostate.

SZA:
Yeah, my grandma also has cancer or had cancer before she passed.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Cancer, right? Colon, right?

SZA:
Yes.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah, yeah. So it's like-

Mary Alice:
My grandfather had colon cancer, too.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I mean, every family, if you take a history, a lot of people have family history of cancer, so we have genetic tests for that. You have to make sure there's not an underlying gene mutation in your DNA that can increase your lifetime risk for certain cancers. It could be breast, it could be pancreas, it could be colon, it could be uterus, it could be ovary. So I checked her. She's negative, but you still can't assume everyone... These tests are available. It's a full panel genetic testing. But when you do that, in addition to that, you have to calculate someone's lifetime risk. Just because you don't carry a gene mutation doesn't mean you're not going to get breast cancer or that your lifetime risk is not high. I didn't have a gene mutation. I had no family history of breast cancer, but my lifetime risk was 37%. So it's important to know what that number is.

SZA:
When we did the lifetime risk, we may have did it twice.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
So I can explain it.

SZA:
Okay.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I know what you're going to ask. So when she first presented to my office, I didn't know the density of her breast and it was... I just knew her height, weight, family history, and at that time, she had not been tested with genetic testing. So when I calculated her lifetime risk and did a genetic test, her gene mutation was completely negative, but her lifetime risk, because of her family members, was really high. Do you want me to share that number or no?

SZA:
Sure.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Her first lifetime risk calculation was 53%.

Mary Alice:
How did you feel when you heard that?

SZA:
I didn't understand, so it didn't really bother me [inaudible 00:13:01]. No disrespect.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You see what I deal with?

Mary Alice:
This is the point. This is actually really the point. So 50%. So then what happens? You have somebody that has 50% lifetime risk.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
53% based on height, weight, whether or not they've had children, when they got their period, who in their family has breast cancer. Multiple factors, right? So you can't sit here and say, "I don't have it in my family, I won't get it." You have to plug in all the factors and figure out that number. So obviously, she wasn't scared. I was terrified with 53%. So what happens is when your lifetime risk is more than 20%, you need to start breast imaging at age 30, right?

Mary Alice:
Not 40, which is normally.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Not 40, which is... Exactly. She would walk into another doctor's office, they would say, "Oh, your mom had breast cancer?" You usually go 10 years prior, if you don't calculate lifetime risk. It's 10 years prior, your first relative's age of diagnosis or 40, right? But someone like her would get missed because she's younger. She's not even close to 40, but her lifetime risk is high. So...

SZA:
I feel like I'm technically closer to 40 than I am.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Oh, my God. Don't listen to her.

SZA:
To 20.

Mary Alice:
I am closer to 60 than I am 40, which is a really sad thing. I'm 52.

SZA:
Oh, you look fantastic.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I'm 53. I'm older than you.

SZA:
Well, both of you all look fantastic. All right, fine. I'll be close to 40.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
So because her genetic test was negative and because I found out the density of her breast... The second time I could calculate it, she dropped from 53% to about 27% because in the formula-

Mary Alice:
Oh, great. Great. I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm having a nervous breakdown over here." That's so good.

SZA:
I'm screaming [inaudible 00:14:45] saying the exact same because again, I don't know. I went, they put a metal ball in the thing.

Mary Alice:
Yeah, I had one too when they took a lump [inaudible 00:14:55].

SZA:
They took also a piece of it. Yeah, they take a little biopsy of it. Then they put the ball in there. And then what's crazy is, when I got my boobs done and my doctor took out some of my fibrosis, but I didn't... He was like, "There was so much fibrosis, it was crazy." And he took it out. And so when I went back, a lot of the concerns were gone-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Gone.

SZA:
... but the mark he... By accident. He had no idea. It was so weird. I mean, I had seen somebody spiritual about it, about specifically the breast cancer situation and the marker before I had the results of the biopsy and all that. I had talked to somebody because I was like, "I got to figure out what's going on in the higher realms-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah.

SZA:
... and whether is to be done about it or whatever." But yeah. So then by the time the results came back and by the time I had... And I was supposed to see you before I got my breast surgery, but I didn't and I snuck and got it anyways. I was not supposed to with my risk of breast cancer. And then with the actual... I have markers in my breast, like metal markers in my breast for all these fibrosis, for these lumps or whatever. I'm not supposed to be getting breast implants.

Mary Alice:
Well, your boobs look great.

SZA:
No, I got them so I... Long story. So anyway.

Mary Alice:
They look amazing right now.

SZA:
I took them out. I took them out. So basically, I put them in. They ended up hurting me. I got way too much scar tissue because my breasts are too dense and I'm not supposed to have breast implants and I ended up getting extra fibrosis, with tissue, whatever. And I didn't feel good and it was painful. So I took them out and now they're just my boobs.

Mary Alice:
They look good.

SZA:
But saying that to say thank you, but saying that to say God is good and all the weird stuff that was in there, I haven't checked in maybe two and a half years, so I need to go back. I just scheduled it.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Good.

SZA:
Thanks to Dr. A's office, I just scheduled it. But I will say, I mean, I haven't even felt my boobs in so long, but they feel pretty... Like normal to me. I don't feel any lumps in-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But that doesn't mean... So by the time you feel a lump, it's already been there a few years. The reason we do all this imaging is to catch it few years before you can actually palpate it. So I'm glad you scheduled it because I was about to tell on you.

SZA:
I scheduled it. I'm really naughty, but I feel like... I'm naughty, but also really attentive. I'm obsessed with doing things the right way-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah, you are.

SZA:
... and knowing what's going on. I have to know what's going on and I have to know why something's happening and all the potential side effects of something before because I'm also really reactive. Remember when my hair fell out from spironolactone?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah.

SZA:
Oh, my God.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah.

Mary Alice:
And that's stress, right?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But she's... But you know what-

SZA:
No.

Mary Alice:
No? I keep wanting to put something on stress.

SZA:
I wish. It's like my stress is actually just why I am bitchy, but other than that, I really just am really physically allergic.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
She's never bitchy. I've never ever.

SZA:
No, no. You all just haven't seen me in that... You seen me in deep frantic distress, but never bitchy.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Never bitchy.

SZA:
No, because there's no reason for that.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
It's worrying about a medical condition and being bitchy is two... They're two separate things.

Mary Alice:
Yes, that's-

SZA:
I can get really edgy about medical-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Health stuff.

SZA:
Yeah.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You get scared with health stuff. I mean, I'm the same way. Listen.

SZA:
No, you're really casual.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Maybe I have PTSD from my breast cancer.

Mary Alice:
Well, she says that sometimes since she had breast cancer, she will get a headache and say, "Oh, my God. Do I have brain cancer." I mean, it's just-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah.

SZA:
Oh.

Mary Alice:
You know, there is... Yeah.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Yeah. I put myself in an MRI machine two weeks ago because I kept having headaches. And when you've had the diagnosis of cancer, I'm sure you know with your mom, there's a PTSD aspect that comes with it. I think the reason you get anxious with health stuff is because of all your family members. I mean, I went through it.

SZA:
Me, too, yeah.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
It's traumatic. When someone tells you you have cancer or even if it's your mom or your sister or a loved one, it's really difficult.

SZA:
Especially if you feel like things were missed and maybe you had a hunch on a couple of things and you didn't press the line or you know what I mean? You didn't call anybody. With my grandma, there were so many signs.

Mary Alice:
That she had colon cancer. I know.

SZA:
There were so many signs that things were wrong and there was so... For quite, for years, and there was so much like, "Oh." And so now I'm just super... But I try not to let it make me crazy, but I am very... Even when my mom and her psoriasis and her palms went black, completely black, and the bottom of her feet went completely black. And I was like, "What?" And she was like, "Oh. You know?" When they were itching and burning but doing... When you look up psoriasis on the internet, there's only white people examples [inaudible 00:19:32]-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Right, right, right, right. Isn't that crazy?

SZA:
I've never seen anything with black palms or anything like that. So she had to go talk to somebody about autoimmune stuff, but it's also COVID. So she had to talk to somebody on Zoom and then it was so much... I was so anxious because of her previous health issues and feeling like, "Ah, she's not taking this seriously enough" and "What could it mean? Is she losing oxygen to her limbs? Is that why her palms and her feet are black? Is she going to have to get them amputated? What's going on?" There's so many things.

Mary Alice:
And I think with Google now, we're all doctors. We're all looking up everything. And then we-

SZA:
Between Google and personal experience, I am a doctor. I'm not really a doctor though because I'm going to mess up your prescriptions, but I'd be knowing what's going on with me. Unless it's a feminine issue, I don't know anything.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But you're your own advocate, though. I've noticed that about you. If something is not right, she's going to say, "What is this?" I appreciate that.

Mary Alice:
Me, too.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Better than saying, "It's nothing." Well, let's make sure it's nothing.

SZA:
Yeah.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
She's young. You're young, but when you get above 50, you have to be careful. You can't just walk around and say, "It's okay." It's not okay. You need your heart checked. You to do your annual blood test. You need to do certain things.

Mary Alice:
I just got a colonoscopy. I love going under. I know that sounds terrible.

SZA:
I love going under.

Mary Alice:
It's the best.

SZA:
Oh, my God.

Mary Alice:
I literally-

SZA:
I've had three colonoscopies. I love going under.

Mary Alice:
I'm glad you're getting colonoscopies because of the colon cancer in your family.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Family history. [inaudible 00:21:01].

SZA:
I had salmonella typhoid. That's what happened. That's why I ended up getting... So random. Salmonella typhoid from an outbreak of tuna. Yeah.

Mary Alice:
Sushi?

SZA:
Yeah, it was like a 20... The CDC ended up calling me and told me that I was part of a 20, city wide, whatever, nationwide outbreak of tuna. But yeah. By the time I got out of the hospital, the place had shut down, but I got a colonoscopy then and I was wrecked after that. I never, my colon never recovered from that.

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SZA:
I'm always on tour.

Mary Alice:
You're always on tour?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
She's always working.

Mary Alice:
How do you... Okay. So I kind of want to get back to your amazing, incredible career.

SZA:
It's just been a beautiful process just to be able to create next to people that are so brilliant and I feel like, yeah, everybody in my musical life is so excellent. I've just been surrounded by excellence from, I don't know, since the inception. I just stumbled on people who are so great at their craft, whether it's my friends that are just somehow the best musicians I've ever heard and they've gone on to have number one records of their own and do all these other things, producers like Carter Lang. I just luck up with the best people around me. I'm just so blessed. It's been crazy.

Mary Alice:
Do you find that you're, a lot of the times, the only woman in the room? I mean it's-

SZA:
Yeah. But yeah...

Mary Alice:
Yeah, but that's okay? Or is that... Or do you...

SZA:
Yeah. I don't care. I feel like that never matters to me, and I don't know if I feel so much like a woman in the spot. You know what I mean? I don't know if I feel like it's me, the only girl here. I just feel like I'm with the homies and I think they feel like I'm the homie and that's part of why... I don't know. I can move the way I move because... It can be when I want to be hyper feminine and I want to do the things and be perceived much softer in a different space, but that takes attention and intention. But if I'm just myself, then I'm just like a person and I can hang with anybody. I can create with anybody and it doesn't feel like anything. It's just energy exchanging and coming together and creating, and it's a vibe.

Mary Alice:
So many of your songs are about love, falling in love, losing love.

SZA:
Yeah.

Mary Alice:
I mean, can we talk about some inspiration? Do you get your heart broken and then write a song, like Taylor Swift does? I mean, how does it work with that process for you?

SZA:
A lot of it's just old stuff. My first love was my first heartbreak, so I had to just get past and processing those things much later in life. I was engaged with somebody. I was with him for 10, 11 years. I loved him so very much. But even before him, I was with somebody else and there was a transition period and I learned so much in those first serious relationships. And all my albums are about those first relationships and now it's just like... The ugly parts of those things, I think, are just more interesting to talk about. So that's what I...

Mary Alice:
Do they help you process it?

SZA:
Yeah, because once I do it, it's over. I never listen to my own music once it's done, unless I'm performing it. And even then, I'm not listening to it. I'm performing it. But yeah.

Mary Alice:
When you did Black Panther, you went from zero to a hundreds. Does it feel like it's happened quickly or does it feel like it's been a long time? I mean-

SZA:
No, it's still happening so quickly. I'm in the middle of the blender. You don't really get to look... Sometimes though, you get to look out at everything and be like, "Whoa. I'm really far from..." When we were in Poland on the beach at this festival and I was like, "Whoa, I'm so far from home. This is so weird that I'm in Poland right now." I don't know. My life and God has brought me this far in my career. And I was like, "Whoa. The people around me are so amazing and I'm so blessed to be around all these amazing people," and I just started crying on the beach and it was so weird because I... My life has been so colorful and huge and insane, way past anything I could ever come up for myself. And it's just very... I don't know, it's just so weird and bizarre, and it's such a blessing. I'm so honored and really fucking lucky to, I don't know, have the people that are around me, whether it's the people I create with, whether it's my best friend that doubles as my manager, but she really understands me. So it's like she's also my life partner and my soulmate type shit. But that's also very rare to have somebody that is smart and has good taste and you can trust and can do things with, because a lot of people have friends. You love your friends, but you love your friends in a certain space. You can't blend that [inaudible 00:27:11].

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
She keeps saying, "I'm surrounded by so much love. I have so many people who are great around me."

SZA:
I do.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You know why? Because you're the center of it. You should see the text messages I randomly get from her.

Mary Alice:
It's just the best.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No, I'm serious. It's just love coming out of your pores. You give so much love to people around you. I mean, I'm your doctor, your mom, your second mom, but the text messages-

SZA:
My psychiatrist.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
... you send me fills up my heart. I mean, to take them, a second to type up something so loving and send it to someone, it takes a lot of courage and passion and that's why people are so attracted to you. Do you know what I'm... I have thousands of patients. If you tell me, name one of the top 10 favorite patients, one of them is her because of that level of love though, because of-

SZA:
I just want to be your top 10 favorite patient. I don't even care about [inaudible 00:28:07].

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No.

Mary Alice:
You don't care about the Grammy Awards [inaudible 00:28:10]?

SZA:
I don't even want to be a good person. I just want to be top 10 favorite patients. That's all.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But she is. But you see who she is and that's why you're surrounded with so much love. You always do good for other people. You take care of people around you. I mean-

SZA:
No. Thank you. Please don't-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
That's why your life is where it is.

SZA:
... say anything else. No.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No, it's not luck.

SZA:
I will say I do believe that some part of me, beyond me being embarrassed and feeling like a bad person or whatever the case may be, there's some part of me that does call the energy around me and I'm grateful for that part of me that... Or that goodness in me that does call the goodness around me because wow. I feel like the people around me are just better than I could ever be and better than I am. And I aspire to be more like them, but I'm grateful to have them and I don't want to use them up or waste their time or their energy. But yeah.

Mary Alice:
Was there a moment or a person that changed your life, that changed the direction of your life?

SZA:
I had a friend in fifth grade. She was funny and cool and popular and she moved from far away and she had all this crazy energy and pazzazz. We became best friends, but before her, it was like I was the only person that was strange and all these other things. And she kind of also showed me what it was like to share space with someone because it's not all about Solana in this one space. Now you have somebody that's really enigmatic and from somewhere else and she's tall and she's slender and she's all these things and has all this hair and everyone loves her. And it taught me how to accept someone and be like, "Oh, you're beautiful and fire." It's that moment when you learn to either be inspired or intimidated in life. You know what I mean? And that moment in my life was like, "Oh, I want to be like her instead of, I hate her." So I was like, "Oh, this is my best friend I want to be just like her," which necessarily can go down another dark, crazy path. It's like what? She had all these things. She was drinking like screwdrivers in the morning at 12, and I thought she was so cool and in hindsight, it was so chaotic and she lived with her dad. She went to her mom's house on the weekends. Her dad had this vintage Mercedes and he would drive to LBI Long Beach... Long Island Beach or whatever, and we would just be there and I don't know, kind of flow in the wind and not be parental at all. And I thought it was so fun and I felt like, "Oh, this is that moment," that pivotal moment when I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is who I want to be." And then-

Mary Alice:
You were different probably. You were more than everything else.

SZA:
I pissed off everyone around-

Mary Alice:
And then high school and middle school, you want to be... Everybody's in a little box.

SZA:
Yeah.

Mary Alice:
It's the same.

SZA:
It's kids. It's like, I get it. My mama... It's polarizing. My mom will say, "Some people either..." Either loved her or you hated her, and you didn't even know why you didn't like me. You just couldn't stand me. So it was like that. But I learned something, that skill and talent and excellence will always trump whatever... And respect will trump whatever personal emotions about anything and it ruined me because it made me addicted to being great at things and then I wanted to get-

Mary Alice:
That's not a bad addiction to have.

SZA:
Yeah, but it gets tricky when you're like, "Okay." Now I'm in the unlearning phase of being like, it doesn't matter how much other people respect you and you don't have to fight to be number one and understood and respected and blah, blah, blah. And you don't have to care if people don't get it. You don't have to care if people don't see you for who you are.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But that's a good place to be.

SZA:
Yeah, I like this but-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Most people go through life and don't get to this.

SZA:
I'm grateful. I definitely want to be number one still, but I'm not depressed at the thought... It is not all. It's not everything. I was fully validated by outside acceptance and that's what that pivotal moment taught me. To grow from that was really... It built me and made me who I am and allowed me to become SZA. But it also took me to a strange place. And now I'm grateful that I realize that. But yeah, there's been a lot of pivotal moments, pivotal people, my mom, my grandma.

Mary Alice:
Do you want to get married? Do you want to have babies?

SZA:
Oh, my God. What? Dr. A?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I know. It's my dream. Every time I see her I'm like-

SZA:
I know.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
"I want to deliver your babies." But then I'm trying to convince her to foster so-

SZA:
I know.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I gave up.

SZA:
You can't have it all. Which one do you want? You want me to foster the babies on the compound or you want me to grow them? I can't, I'm not doing both.

Mary Alice:
We're really good at setting people up, so if you-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You are.

SZA:
Oh, my God. Listen...

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I keep telling her, bring a foster child. I'll keep her when you go or him-

SZA:
Oh, okay. So Amber-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
... when you go on tour.

SZA:
Well, I asked my best friend if she would do it with me. She said, no, because we have too much on our plate, but I'm going to try to sweeten her up-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
To foster or to-

Mary Alice:
My sister... Yeah, I tried to... To foster.

SZA:
Well, she's like my life partner, so I'm like, "Do this with me."

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
That's great.

SZA:
She's my bestie, but she's also the smartest person. So I was like, even if we didn't end up raising a child together through a management lens, I'm going to force her to co-parent with me as my fake co-parent.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I don't think...

SZA:
Somehow because she's too great at everything. She can bake. She knows how to do everything.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Then she needs to foster. I don't think DCFS will give you a child right now.

SZA:
She is fostering me. She's currently fostering me.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Exactly.

SZA:
And our puppies. No, but seriously, I actually want to foster a child so badly because I feel like I need to make sure I'm not going to ruin my kids.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You will be the best mom.

Mary Alice:
Oh, my Lord. You'd be the best mother.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Are you kidding?

Mary Alice:
Yes.

SZA:
I'm very selfish.

Mary Alice:
So am I.

SZA:
I have a short temper-

Mary Alice:
... and I have five children.

SZA:
Do they like you?

Mary Alice:
Sometimes.

SZA:
Okay, that's fair.

Mary Alice:
Not all the time.

SZA:
That's fair.

Mary Alice:
We can ask them later. Okay. Actually, two of my kids have questions for you-

SZA:
Oh, okay.

Mary Alice:
... that they prepared. This is really serious stuff.

SZA:
Okay, okay.

Mary Alice:
What advice would you give young musicians or individuals in the entertainment industry about maintaining their health and well-being?

SZA:
What?

Mary Alice:
That's a child asking this question.

SZA:
Tell these children I don't have no health and well-being and that I'm insane and constantly in need of aid. I don't know. You better go get you a Dr. A. But also, no, seriously though, get off the internet, for real. When I recently...

Mary Alice:
Please repeat that. Please repeat that.

SZA:
No, you have to. I'm telling you something. A lot of my friends, artists and non-artists have been doing this thing where they really just... It's not revolutionary or anything, but really just getting the fuck off the internet and really putting their phone down. And it's changing their minds and they're realizing things and they're realizing... Oh, it's weird. It's getting a lot weirder. And I feel like the more you're plugged in-

Mary Alice:
The less creative you are.

SZA:
... you get confused. No. I actually don't think that it harms your creativity. I hate that I'm hurting your argument as a mother, but I think it's changing creativity and I think there's... Creativity can come from so many different places, but there's a very special place. The catalyst is something that doesn't come from the internet. But I love being inspired by things I find on the internet and realizing, I can do this in my own way or in my own words. And I actually think the internet is a great vehicle for creativity, but that AI section and when it's so much-

Mary Alice:
Scrolling [inaudible 00:35:45]-

SZA:
... input, input, input, constant input, you have to recognize you have to give your receptors a rest so you can process the information so that you can have creative output that's actually awesome. But if you're constantly just drowning yourself out with input, you can't even sort it out to transmute the energy and put it back out as something cool.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
You don't even know what's real and what's not anymore.

SZA:
I don't even care what's real and what's not. I'm pretty sure none of it's real. And that's where I'm going to go ahead and I'm just going to assume none of it's real and go from there.

Mary Alice:
You also say on your recent album, SOS, is inspired by your departure from attempting to be a nice girl.

SZA:
Yeah, that's true.

Mary Alice:
What does that mean?

SZA:
I love that question. No one has asked me that. Basically, I think it used to hurt my feelings for so long because I had friends that were syrupy sweet, like so sweet. And my mom is syrupy sweet, like angelic and people love her. And to the point where I've never seen my mom speak ill of anyone or gossip negatively about anyone. She's never cursed anyone out in my entire lifetime. There's definitely times when she's raised her voice and she definitely has popped me a few times, but that's... Actually, but I can still count on one hand, but it's also... But yeah, it's just different. She's a different kind of good person. She's genuinely a nice girl, a nice girl, TM. So it's like when you have that as a mom and you're in the shadow of ultimate nice girl and pleasant Patty all the time, and then it's like, all your friends are so sweet and they're this, this and that. And I had this inner turmoil and angst and I had so much why, natural why in me, and why disrupts peace. Acceptance is what they say breeds peace and hope leads to suffering and all that type of shit. But I was born with... I even did my human design and I am born with an internal, why I have to... But it's also what leads me to all of my great discoveries because the why and the curiosity. There's so much mystery and magic in the why, but it also... It just made me edgy.
My mom doesn't have that. She was cool. She is cool, just accepting and breathing through everything. And I think I felt guilty for being an anxious person and being angsty about the world and being edgy and having opinions and disagreeing and having an attitude or just being me and things happened to me in my childhood that also made me a little more combative in my adult life. Trauma and things like that, that I'm working through actively in therapy and I was resentful of that. I was mad that I was aggressive and always on defense. I was just angry. I was angry that all these things happened to me. And like-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
This is when you were little?

SZA:
Yeah. It just made me feel like I don't want to be soft. I don't want to be soft like my mom because bad things happen to soft people like that and she's not strong because she's not soft. And then I don't want to be soft because bad things happened to me when I-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I was soft.

SZA:
... was soft and I feel like... I don't know. I just felt like it was lame to be like that, but it actually poisoned me and it continues to poison me. It's something that I'm trying to extract out of my system, but it comes from trauma, it comes from pain and it comes from all these things, but it's also, you can't really extract. You have to just integrate. So when you have to... And you learn to just-

Mary Alice:
Accept it.

SZA:
... yeah. And be like, "You know what? I have a edge, but I'm also really powerful and I can get anything done for anyone." And I know that especially for myself and I can will anything into existence and I can bend anything to my will and I love that about myself, but I can also really drive people to hell and out of their mind. There is a time when someone has to get bulldozed through because that's how God designed me and I know it's not for no reason. You know what I mean?

Mary Alice:
Yeah.

SZA:
I know that there's a purpose for the strength and the spice and the edge and the torpedo vibes, but it doesn't have to be all the time and it doesn't have to poison the positive moments and the good days and the good people around me. So it's that acceptance of like, yeah, I'm not a nice girl. I'll never be syrupy sweet. That's not the way that God designed me to process the world or any of the things that have happened to me. Because I'm not saying that my mom had a perfect life, but for some reason, she was able to really process that shit and she transmitted that energy into something else. But in me, it's-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Different.

SZA:
... it's I'm just me and that's okay. Yeah, I'm not a nice girl. I'm just me. And that's not a crime.

Mary Alice:
And don't you think that strength has helped you in the music industry [inaudible 00:40:43].

SZA:
Yeah.

Mary Alice:
What do you think you would tell that girl that was just starting off in this industry? You could never have imagined that you would be where you are now or maybe you could have imagined, but what would you tell her right now if you could give her advice and she's just starting out?

SZA:
I only have two albums. So it's like I was pretty much grown when I was making music, but I guess the smaller me that was like, I didn't know what I wanted to do and where I wanted to be, but I knew it had to be massive in the weirdest way. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer, I wanted to be a scientist, I wanted to be a doctor. I want to be all these things, a veterinarian. It was like, I have to do it. I going to be at a desk and I'm going to have a power suit and I'm going to have a corner office and I'm going to make things happen. I want to be a businessman. That's my twenty-year plan as a child. But it was like I didn't know... But I guess I would tell myself just chill on the guilt trip. There's much less to feel guilty about than you realize. It's just life happening. Everything's going to come full circle. Everybody's going to get theirs. Everybody, don't even trip. It is just believe in yourself. Let the delusions of grandeur fuel you. But it's weird. It's like my younger self was more on point than me now.

Mary Alice:
In what way?

SZA:
I was like... I almost want to know what my younger self would say to me right now. My younger self was like... For real, she was insane in the best way. She was delusional. You can tell. For some reason, I just believed that I was just... I could do anything and thinks that there's no quantifiable reason why I should believe that I'll be on the cover of any magazine because I'm just on 138 Street at the bodega and I'm sitting at home writing with my boyfriend on this napkin like, "And I'm going to be on the cover of a magazine and I'm going to be... And I'm going to..." And he laughed at me, but he also loved that about me, that I was delusional and silly. My silly little notes, my silly little dreams, but I've just always just seen the picture and then just move towards the picture. I never look left, look right.

Mary Alice:
It was just-

SZA:
I'm very tunnel vision on everything and I think moving forward, I can tell I'm tunneling into something different. I'm tunneling into expansion outside of music. I love music and it's within me. It doesn't take a lot of energy to do it. It does when I want to think and have to make it make sense and blah, blah, blah, but it's very innate. But the other things. I want to get into agriculture and like...

Mary Alice:
Amazing.

SZA:
Really though. I don't know why it's been on my mind, but I can tell that's the next thing that's going to expand who I am as a person. I think it's going to be agriculture and I don't know why. I could just tell. I could just tell. You know in your spirit, I just believe that God doesn't put things on your spirit that-

Mary Alice:
Mm-mm. There's a reason for all of it that.

SZA:
... aren't supposed to be there. I felt the way about music when I was just like, it was more like a, I guess I'll do this. I'll go sing on my friend's hook because he asked me to. And I'll go give this a try because I think it's funny that I can do this, but then I don't know. It put me in position. I didn't put myself there. It was weird. It was just that silly little desire thing again where it's just like, "I'll just do this."

Mary Alice:
And then it happens.

SZA:
And that's how agriculture feels right now. It's like, I know I have a desire to stay up and research and Google and do the little things and it's a silly little hobby right now, but I can tell it's going to be something.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Wow.

Mary Alice:
Amazing.

SZA:
I don't know.

Mary Alice:
You also sang one of my favorite, All the Stars for the Black Panther movie with Kendrick Lamar.

SZA:
Yeah.

Mary Alice:
Have you heard... I mean, yes you have. Did you see the last Black Panther?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
No, you guys. I mean, she knows. I don't know anyone. I don't watch... I don't go to the movie-

SZA:
Set Dr. A free, child.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I know. Can you? I don't know people.

SZA:
But wait, first of all, have you ever seen her comment section? It's riddled with celebrities.

Mary Alice:
I know.

SZA:
Riddled with the baddest bitches on the internet. It's so bizarre. It'd be like Lori Harvey, every Kardashian and then me just being like, "Yay Dr. A, you look great today. Love your dress."

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
But I don't... You know me by now. I don't know people.

Mary Alice:
Well, we're going to sit down and watch Black Panther.

SZA:
She's too busy tending to the...

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I know. I don't... That I have...

Mary Alice:
But you were nominated for an Oscar.

SZA:
That was crazy. Wait, can I say the Oscars is also the scariest room I've ever been in, in my whole life?

Mary Alice:
Wait, tell me about that.

SZA:
It was crazy, but it was amazing and everyone looked so beautiful and I was like, "Wow. This is a very expensive place."

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I can see that.

SZA:
Oh, my. It was crazy.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
And I feel like it's an older generation.

SZA:
The wardrobe and all. Even the younger people there, it's just like, "Wow." It was-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Perfection.

SZA:
Yeah. And I didn't know that that actually existed and I thought, "I never want to be in that."

Mary Alice:
You never want to be an actress?

SZA:
I feel like, I'm down, but I can't-

Mary Alice:
[inaudible 00:45:39] you'd be so good.

SZA:
Oh, my God.

Mary Alice:
I'm just telling you right now. So casting directors of Hollywood, now that the strike is over, she's gorgeous. She's great on camera and she's got an amazing voice.

SZA:
Thank you. Aw, thank you. If I can get the level of pristine and like... It was just crazy.

Mary Alice:
Who did you see that you were like, "Holy shit."

SZA:
I talked to everyone. I waved at everyone [inaudible 00:45:59], like a lunatic. I was like, "Hi." Even... Wait, Mark Ronson was there. I think other music people were there and also didn't know how to behave in that space because I went to go talk to Mark Ronson, who I talked to often, and we've been in the studio together and I was like, "Hey." And he was like, "Hello, hey." And I was just like, "What's happening with everyone?" But nothing was wrong. It was just like, apparently, this is the Oscar. It's just serious. It's serious business.

Mary Alice:
What about the Golden Globes?

SZA:
I've never been to the Golden Globes, but if I have a reason, I would like to go.

Mary Alice:
The Golden Globes is... I've been to the Golden Globes and it's more fun than the Oscars because everybody's wasted.

SZA:
Oh, that sounds so fun.

Mary Alice:
There's no food and there's no water.

SZA:
There's no food at the Oscars.

Mary Alice:
There's no food at the Oscars either?

SZA:
Hell no. Not in my seat.

Mary Alice:
Oh, [inaudible 00:46:40].

SZA:
Mm-mm. I did touch an Emmy for the first time, it was crazy, at Lizzo's house. I picked it up. It was insane. I didn't even know it was a person. It's a woman with wings and shit on her back.

Mary Alice:
Well, if you win, when you win a Grammy, can we come over and touch your Grammy?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I know.

SZA:
Yeah. No, we're going to drink [inaudible 00:46:58].

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Well, she's going to be your neighbor.

Mary Alice:
Oh, you're going to be my neighbor.

SZA:
I know. We know. Cut the cameras. I need to look through your house.

Mary Alice:
Yeah, exactly.

SZA:
I need to walk through the entire home. It's beautiful.

Mary Alice:
Okay. You're nominated for nine Grammys. Can we say nine Grammys, more than anybody else? What does that feel like?

SZA:
It's terrifying.

Mary Alice:
It's terrifying.

SZA:
And I'm grateful and I'm terrified, and I just want to make it through the evening and I want my parents to be there and I'm just happy. [inaudible 00:47:24].

Mary Alice:
Do you know what you're going to wear? Do you have any idea?

SZA:
I have an idea. I have a few working ideas, two opposite ends of the spectrum, and I'm just deciding if we're going high or we're going low.

Mary Alice:
We're going to watch it together, okay?

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Of course.

Mary Alice:
We're going to watch it together and we are going to send all of our positive energy. You've already won a Grammy, which is amazing.

SZA:
I did. Thank you.

Mary Alice:
You were nominated for an Oscar. I mean, there isn't anything that you have not done. So I just want to say that you're just a badass.

SZA:
Thank you. You are.

Mary Alice:
Well, thank you. You're just, I mean, incredible. You're honestly incredible-

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
Isn't your heart full?

Mary Alice:
No, my heart is full today. And I think that we have, first of all, learned so much about you, but second of all, educated so many women about the lifetime risk, breast cancer. You had this journey with your own self and that's why you're such an advocate about it. But our goal is to help women, and your platform and your voice means so much. So I just can't thank you enough for being here.

SZA:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I love you. I would do anything for you. I hate being on camera. I hate talking. I hate my speaking voice.

Mary Alice:
You have a great voice.

SZA:
I would do anything for you.

Dr. Thais Aliabadi:
I love you.

SZA:
And it's because I love you, too. And I really trust you with my life.

Mary Alice:
Thank you so much for tuning in to SHE MD. We decided to launch this episode on International Women's Day, but Dr. A and I think every day should be International Women's Day. We have new episodes dropping every Tuesday, so make sure to follow us on social media at SHE MD podcast and subscribe to our show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts to stay strong, healthy, and empowered.

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